Authentic & Prosperous Business
The Podcast is back with special guest Lydia Grossov, Creative Director of Expresso Design.
Listen in as she explains her first hand experience doing what she loves while building authentic and prosperous business.
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PODCAST
Darell Brown:
Welcome to the ProProject Podcast with ProProject Bookkeeping. This is your host, Darelll Brown, bringing you bookkeeping tips and tricks to make your project finances run a little smoother. We have another great interview lined up for you today. I'm really excited because there's a lot of advice going around about doing what you love as a part of your career or business, but what does that actually mean from a business and financial standpoint? How do you do what you love and make a good income from it? To answer this, I have my guest, Lydia Grossov. Lydia is the creative director of Expresso Design. Expresso Design has been in business for 12 years. I want to get her insights into being a creative entrepreneur. I'm going to let her introduce herself, but first I want to read a quote of Lydia's. "As an entrepreneur, I also know firsthand what it takes to create an authentic and prosperous business." Lydia, please introduce yourself and tell us what you mean by that quote?
Lydia Grossov:
Thanks Darell. Thanks for having me here. Hi, everyone. I'm Lydia Grossov, founder and creative director of Expresso Design, caffeine for your branding. I've been in business for 12 years, as Darell mentioned, and I think that part of that and part of sustaining that business is the fact that I'm authentic. I am who I am. If I talk to my clients on the phone, if I talk to you on the phone, on an email, my personality is always going to be the same. I don't have any hokey sales lines or any funky packages. I don't have anything that's out of the ordinary or unusual that would set off any red flags to anyone. So I talk to my clients, I like to get to know them, get to understand their businesses and their objectives and their goals, and try to connect with them on a business level, because I'm a business owner myself, and I understand the challenges of a running a business, of staying on deadlines, staying within budget, that there are budgets, and why budgets matter.
They matter for everybody. We need to prioritize. And I understand that sometimes we want the whole world, we want to do it all, but we just can't. So I try to meet clients in between, try to figure out what is their ultimate goal, what can we really do within their budget, and meet them halfway and try to get them as much as they need within those parameters. And I think that being authentic plays a big role in that. It is making that connection with clients, building that trust, because you're not going to build trust if you're not being authentic, if you're not being transparent, if you're not being honest, if you're not being just trustworthy and consistent. You have to be consistent. So all of that goes into that authenticity. All of those aspects play into being authentic to build that trust with your clients. Most of my business is referral-based.
It really is a trust thing. And I've had some clients that I've had for a little over 10 years now, which I think is saying a lot, because they feel comfortable with me. I don't work with all of my clients on a daily basis, like every day, day in, day out. Some clients are very seasonal. They have events and certain things that I help them out with specific times of the year. I don't hear from them, but I know that at that right time when they need me, they're going to be connecting with me, because they're also busy with other projects. And there are some clients that I do with day in and day out. So there has to be that element of trust and that authenticity to keep your clients coming back. And they know that I'm going to be here. That's another aspect is, I've been in business for 12 years, I'm not going anywhere, they know that they can rely on me. If we haven't spoken in six months, and they just come in out of the blue with another project that they need help with, I'm here for them.
Darell Brown:
Yeah. Definitely understand that in terms of being authentic and making sure that their needs are handled, but also being yourself and presenting yourself as you are as you're working with them. And I think it creates a sense of comfortability with the client, which is obvious, because as you say, some of them have been working with you for 10 years, so that's pretty amazing. I want to delve into how you actually got started. And I love the idea that you're in a design field, you're essentially doing what you love, and you're getting paid for it. You built a business around it that's successful. So I want to start off with, how did you get into this business? What inspired you to actually create Expresso Design?
Lydia Grossov:
Okay. That's a long... Do you want the short answer or the long answer?
Darell Brown:
Whichever one works for you. The long answer is probably much more interesting than the short one, so I'd love to hear it.
Lydia Grossov:
Okay. Well, the long answer it is. I come from a family of creatives. My mom's a big Martha Stewart style person, before Martha Stewart was even famous. Who knew Martha Stewart when I was in grade school? But I knew my mom, and... Bear with me here for a second. My phone's ringing on my computer. Sorry about that. So my mom was a stay-at-home mom with four kids and not a big budget, so my mom had to get creative on weekends and... Well, she was already creative, but she had to get even more creative on weekends, and especially during summer vacation to keep four kids out of her hair and busy. So we always had some sort of days-long, week-long art project that she would assign us on summer vacations. Oh, let's make plaster statues of the Disney characters, and then each one of you paint them whichever way you want to. Let's embroider pillowcase. Now let's learn how to sew. And let's make macrame pot holders.
You name it, we did it all growing up. And my mom taught me how to sew, and knit, and crochet, and cook, and paint and do all of that. And I have an aunt who used to paint. She's much older now, retired, but she used to paint porcelain and teach porcelain painting. So I come from this family of makers and creatives, so I think it was kind of inevitable that I ended up in this field. Even though my siblings aren't in creative fields, it kind of was inevitable that one of us was going to be a professional creative. And that kind of just paved the path of what I chose to do in life, because that's what I knew how to do. So it just seemed natural. It seemed like a natural choice to go into design, although graphic design is much different than knitting or crocheting and sewing, but it all kind of feeds from that same love and passion of making and creating things. So-
Darell Brown:
So it looks like your mom really fed that creative source, and you just really ran with it.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of creativity isn't just coming up with the next best design, a lot of it is also problem-solving. Even when you're knitting and crocheting and sewing, you're solving a problem, like I have this fabric, or I have this thing, I have this piece of design that I need to complete, and how do I make it get from point A to point B. So there's a lot of other processes and resource management for all of that. So it all kind of is the same thing if you think of it that way, because you have materials or you have specifically in terms of graphic design, you have content and certain assets that you need to use, and you need to make it all come together and solve a problem and reach a goal. So it's all kind of the same thing.
Darell Brown:
So how did you go from, I guess, knitting and sewing as a child and those projects, to graphic design, to Expresso Design and building that business up?
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. So I decided to go to college and major in advertising and graphic design, and that's what I ended up to doing. I actually did some technical classes. I did some developing classes in high school. I went to a tech school, and I thought that I was going to learn how to do graphic design, and I was actually coding for a while. And I wasn't bad at it, I was actually a pretty good developer. I did some good coding, and then I was like, but this doesn't really get me what I wanted. I wanted pretty pictures on the computer, and that didn't get me what I wanted. So that's when I decided, well, I think I really want to do in college is graphic design, and not developing classes. So that's how I got from that.
There was a little deviation there into coding and developing, and then I veered back into the design realm, which is what I wanted to do. And after college, I got several jobs. I worked at a car magazine, I worked at a direct mail company, and then I worked as an art director at a packaging company in Northeast Philly. I was the art director there for about seven years, and I managed a team of four designers there. And then I got a job as a creative director at a pharmaceutical company. So a small pharma company, and I was a creative director there for 12 years. And I started my business alongside my full-time job, and then I took my business full-time.
Darell Brown:
So essentially a side hustle, and then you switched from a side hustle and went full-time. What was the shift that made it go from side hustle to a full-time business?
Lydia Grossov:
Well, I was laid off. So my side hustle business was my safety net, and thank goodness I had that safety net there. But I really did love my full-time job in pharma. I loved the company. It was a small company. It was a startup when I started working there. I loved working there, and then things changed. The company culture changed, and mergers and investors, and then selling the company, and things shifted, and the objectives of the company changed. And a lot of employees were laid off, and I was one of them, and then that's what really ultimately led me to think, well, I've had my business for a while now, why don't I just put my efforts into that full-time? Let's see what happens. And it's done well. I won't say-
Darell Brown:
[crosstalk 00:12:15] That initial shift, I'm wondering... Because obviously, that's always a thing, obviously you know how to do what you do, but then once you're in business, there are so many other factors that people are like, oh no, I have to do this now, and I have to worry about finances, and I have to send invoices, and I have to do advertising and marketing. So how did you deal with those, along with performing the graphic design as well?
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. So I think it was hard. I'm not going to lie to anybody. Being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart, and having your own business, it can be a rollercoaster at times, and it was. The first few years were a rollercoaster, and at times I was thinking, what am I doing? Not, what am I doing, I don't know what I'm doing, it's like, why am I doing this to myself, why am I putting myself through this rollercoaster of emotions? But I hung in there and I stuck there because it was doing well. It was doing much better than I expected, because when I first took it full-time, I thought, well, where am I going to get my clients? Because all of the clients that I had until then were all referral-based.
I didn't know advertising. I still don't do any advertising really. My business really is 99% referral-based. And I thought, oh my goodness, I've been working at this full-time job, I've done zero networking, where am I going to find new clients? The good thing was that I had a lot of other work colleagues that were also laid off, and they also went their separate ways, but we worked very well.
We worked at a small company, we were a small team, and we worked very well together, so there was that trust there. And as everybody went their own way, they also, they found that they needed a designer, needed help, and they would call on me. And I also made connections. I started going to networking events and just getting my name out there and starting conversations. I don't have any issue starting conversations with people, as you can tell. Anywhere I go, I can easily start... Even though my mom brought me up with, don't talk to strangers, I manage to talk to strangers everywhere I go.
Darell Brown:
Yeah. I think you realize that once you're in business or freelancing or whatever it is, you have to start getting out there and promoting yourself.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. But I really don't. I just talk to people, and I'm myself. I've always been a talker. I used to get the parent/teacher meeting in first grade, second grade, third grade, it's like, she's doing great, but she talks to much. But I'm also a good listener, so that's why I can also... I have a good relationship with my clients, because I really... I think that one thing that makes me stand out from a lot of other designers and other small businesses is that, I really like to know my clients in-depth.
I have a very high-touch business. I work very closely with my clients hand-in-hand. And if they're calling me, I try to call them back as soon as possible if I'm not able to answer the phone on the spot, I try to answer emails as soon as possible because I think that really is part of what builds good relationships, is showing that I am reliable, and I'm there. And if I can't take care of that need right at the moment, I will at least shoot them a quick email and say, I got this, give me a couple of days or however long I need to get back to you.
And I think that that just gives people reassurance, as opposed to when you sent that email, somebody didn't answer it for five days. Did they even get it? Are they ever getting back to you? It happens to all of us. I think we're all overloaded with emails and calls, but I think really the customer service part of the business is really important, especially if you have a high touch business with your clients, a high touch relationship with your clients, and if your business relies on referrals, I think you really need to build those relationships authentically, and part of that is being reliable.
Darell Brown:
Yeah. I mean, I think that goes to creating your value as well. I think so many people think the value is just in what you deliver, but how you deliver that is important as well, and I think that's what gets you over obviously with your clients.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah, absolutely. Because creativity and design isn't cut and dry, and a lot of it is subjective, because I may design something that I think is award-winning, but it's not going to solve my client's problem or they hate it. So it really is, a lot of is getting to know the client, getting a feel for their expectations, and setting expectations and reaching their goals. So you're not always going to design something groundbreaking, but what it really needs to do, it needs to work. It needs to solve a problem, and still be just visually appealing, and it needs to work. So I think that a lot of that goes with listening to your client and listening to their needs, and really paying attention. Even though I am a talker, I've learned that you need to listen to people and really understand their needs, and I think that that really builds great relationships, it builds on that trust factor, and it keeps clients coming back, and it builds your business, it keeps feeding your business.
Darell Brown:
One area I definitely have to ask about, is that I know you specialize in pharmaceutical and healthcare design specifically. And I know the prior company you worked for was in this realm, but as a solo entrepreneur just starting out, you're dealing with this client base. How did that work out initially? I definitely find it interesting you're being a creative person, and I guess most people wouldn't consider the pharmaceutical and healthcare industries to be creative, but obviously they have creative needs. So how was that initial communication, A, letting them know, hey, this is me, this is my own business now, and I'm here to service your needs, and how did those initial relationships work out?
Lydia Grossov:
So the initial relationships that I've had, my business was kind of built on that. I start started getting more pharma and healthcare-related clients because of my full-time job. I actually did have help from my former employers. So they were, like I said, a small startup company when I started working for them, and they would show up at conventions and events, and competitors and other associates or other relationships that they had at these conferences and conventions would come up to them and say, "Hey. We love your marketing pieces, we love your sales pieces, who's doing the design for you? And how could you even afford this?" Because I was delivering agency quality work, and all these people that they were talking to knew that they were small, and that they had a small budget, and how did they manage this.
So my bosses would actually tell them and say, "Our creative director does this, and you can hire her on her free time." So this is how it started. Again, this was 12 years ago, actually more now. So this started way back then. And so I started doing a few things on the side, and everybody was pleasantly surprised, pleased with the end results and with the pricing. Because if you hire an agency, they're going to charge you a lot more, because they have a lot more overhead and they need to cover their costs. So that's another thing that you have to think about, and I know that's one of the topics we're going to be discussing on this podcast, is how do you stay afloat. You need to make sure that you're making a living wage. So agencies have a higher overhead, and they're going to charge more. So in that sense, I was meeting demands of smaller businesses that didn't have those budgets to hire those agencies, and I was helping them stand out from the competition, or at least be on the same par as their competition, but within their smaller budget range.
Darell Brown:
So yeah, I definitely want to address that, because I know a big thing in the freelance realm, and I think especially in the creative freelance realm is, they don't feel that they always get the fees that they deserve for their work. At times, they feel like they're being low balled by a client, but depending on how well they're doing, sometimes they kind of have to take that low ball offer. So how did you navigate that initially, being a free freelancer or having a side gig? And I think you kind of knew better that, in comparison to agencies, you would have a much lower price, but then making sure you know that you're getting the fee that you deserve rather than something that's lower than that?
Lydia Grossov:
Right. So when I first started and I had it as just my side business, I definitely wasn't charging enough, but it was fine for me at the time. And I didn't realize that I wasn't charging enough until I took my business full-time, and then I started doing the accounting myself, and putting pen to paper and say, oh wow, I can't pay my bills with this. I am not charging what I should be charging. And it really is a challenge, especially when you're beginning. And when I took my business full-time, it was hard... I had my established clients, and that was, and that was fine, and I was still working with them within the pricing that I had already, the arrangement that I already had with them, but in getting new clients, it was hard to build up the confidence to charge more, it was hard finding the clients that were willing to pay more.
So I think that the one main tip that I have is, I already knew who my core client base was. So it was healthcare and pharma. That was something that I was comfortable with. I had been working with that for already 12 years in-house and on the side, and that was definitely an arena that I still wanted to focus on. It doesn't mean I can't work with other businesses, and I still do. So I have financial advisors and lawyers and photographers and business coaches. So I do have a wide range of clients, but my core client base is healthcare and pharma. So I knew that that was something that I needed to focus on, but when you're out there and you start your business, you start hearing advice from other business owners and you start rethinking and you start second-guessing yourself, like should I really be doing this, and where am I going to find these clients, and why am I not finding these clients?
Because most of my healthcare and pharma clients, they're not at networking meetings. They have full-time jobs, and they're in corporations, and their offices while everybody else is in networking meetings. So it was just a matter of finding where my core clients were, and how to get in front of them. So I think that my advice to any other designer who's starting out, or small business, if you have a specialty and you find that that is what you really want to specialize in, and you want to niche... I think that niching is helpful because it draws that type of business to you. So even though the first few years were a little tough to find where are my clients, how do I get in front of them, stick to it if that is the niche that you want to work in, find where your clients are, and get in front of them and get to meet them where they are.
But just stay focused. And when you promote your business for that specific niche, you'll notice that people will remember you for that. And when they find someone that is looking for someone like you in that niche, the business will come to you. I don't know if I explained that well, that sounds a little convoluted, but when you niche yourself and you promote yourself for a specific niche, people will remember you for that, and that will attract that sort of business to you.
Darell Brown:
Yeah. I think it's very similar to the, to a degree, the influencer culture that's out here, that if you really put the message out, and you put it out in the right way on the right platforms, then people will recognize you as the go-to for that particular specialty. And I mean, I think that's amazing that you did that pretty early on. I can definitely understand what you're saying in terms of when you first started, it looks like you had that specialty early on, but of course you're listening to other business owners, and usually the thing is, grab as much business as you can, don't say no to money or whatever that's coming in, but that's also kind of a way to actually not do well in business, because you're taking everything that's coming, you're not really putting systems in place for a certain set of clients.
And you yourself end up all over the place, so the work that you may be providing might not be as good. Because when you specialize, you're really able to build systems around it, and I think that's a really important thing for freelancers or even business owners to realize very early on, that putting those systems in place will really be the thing that sets you apart from a competitor and really make you shine in a particular specialty or industry.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and as a designer, like I mentioned, I can design for any type of business, and I do work with other types of businesses. I am currently working with a financial advisor right now, and I've just launched their website and designed their logo, and I'm working with another bus business specialty, but I think that having that clear image paints a clear picture in other people's minds, and they store that in that little file in their brain, in their little mental filing cabinet, and they're like, oh, pharmaceutical and healthcare designer. So when something like that arises, they're like, oh, I know just the person, because there really aren't many other people out there who are saying that. Most designers that I know are just saying, well, I design for anybody and for everything.
And yes, we can do that, but if you're... And this comes from my pharma experience as well. If you have a product, and you say that you cure everything, nobody's going to remember you for anything. So your product... And we did have a product at the company that I worked for that was pretty good for curing a lot of things. It was like a topical product. We worked with dermatology. It was a topical product. It was great for healing multiple different types of skin irritations and wounds and things, but doctors never remembered it for anything until we niched that product for one specific thing, and then doctors remembered it, but then prescribed it for other things. So it's the same practice for businesses in general. I mean, you can be an accountant, but if you say that you're an accountant specifically for small businesses or specifically for tech companies, then that's the business type that you're going to attract, and people are going to remember you for that. And it makes you stand out. You're not just any accountant, you're an accountant for tech firms.
Darell Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Definitely sets you apart from the standard. Definitely.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah, absolutely. And of course you're an accountant, you can do accounting for anybody. So it's the same principle, and you're just painting a more direct picture in people's minds so that they can remember you for something specific. So I think that that's how. I started and I stuck to that. I never deviated from that. And businesses take time to pick up momentum and go... And I just stuck with it. I did take other jobs obviously that weren't just healthcare-related, but I stuck with that, and then my healthcare and pharma business started to grow.
Darell Brown:
In terms of that, I definitely want to talk about in terms of you sticking it out and getting to that point where your business grew, and I definitely want to talk about... You've hit on the financial aspect a few times in terms of budgeting and accounting. For instance, with accounting, I guess that's when you realized you weren't charging enough. So I wonder, what kind of financial systems, whether it's actual accounting systems, or just maybe an Excel sheet that you put in place to really analyze what was going on, and how did you come to the decision, hey, you know what, I'm not charging enough, I got to do a little bit better?
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. So even though I'm creative and we’re talking about sewing, crocheting, cooking and all this, I'm also really good at math, and I know what bills I have to pay [inaudible 00:31:15] have to pay them. So yes, and I am very analytical and I pretty type A, so I have spreadsheets for everything. And I think that as a business owner, you do... Especially as an entrepreneur in the startup business, you really have to have a handle on your money. And I know that there are mantras out there, do what you love, and the money's going to come, and you got to spend money to make money, but you know what? If the money's not coming in, you shouldn't be spending it.
Darell Brown:
I agree.
Lydia Grossov:
There are specific things... And those mantras are great, but they don't really work in practice if you want to stay afloat. So you have to be smart with your money. Yes, do what you love, but make sure you're making enough money to pay your bills because this is a business after all. If you want to have another creative outlet... And this is one thing that, there are some things that I really, really love doing, and everybody tells me, oh, you should... I love cooking, and I'm a foodie, and I do go all out, and I haven't had much time now because I'm really putting a lot of my energy into my business, but people will always tell me, "You have to open a restaurant." I'm like, "No, because I don't want to hate cooking."
Or I would never do it for myself. I would end up cooking all day for everybody else, and I wouldn't want to cook dinner for myself anymore. That's really where my other creative outlet is, is cooking, conjuring up these crazy food ideas, and then just making them for myself and saying, hey, this came out as good as I thought it would. So the do what you love comes with a disclaimer. Don't take something that you really love and that's your zen, and try to make money from that. You're either not going to make enough money to live, or you're going to end up that's not going to be your zen anymore, and it's going to totally kill that for you. Because a business is a business, and you do have to like what you do and be good what you do to be successful in a business, but if you take that like, oh my gosh, I love this [inaudible 00:33:51] for free every day for everybody, then you're not going to be able to pay your bills. I don't know [crosstalk 00:33:56]-
Darell Brown:
Basically it's a very expensive hobby at this point. Yeah.
Lydia Grossov:
Yes. So I don't know if it... I tend to separate those things. That's just how I work. I've been designing and creating my entire life, so I do have different compartments of creativity that I do as hobbies and my zen, and then what I do as my business. And I think because I started off as a graphic designer right out of college, graphic design has always been my business and my breadwinner. But that doesn't mean that I don't like what I do. I do like it, but you also can't get lost and your love and your passion, and not focus on the business aspect of it. You have to have a balance there with the, do what you love, but be smart about it, and make sure that you're making enough to pay your bills, that you're not sinking yourself into a hole.
Darell Brown:
Wow. I totally love that.
Lydia Grossov:
So you have to balance the passion with the rational, then sink all of your crazy passion into hobby, because we need to take a break, and you need to have something that is going to revitalize you and make you more productive in your workday so that you can continue to produce good work and make a living. So I think that's one piece of advice that I have for creatives, just don't lose your head in your business or in your passion. Find that balance between the passion and the rationale to make them work for you so that you can run a successful business.
Darell Brown:
This actually reminds me of something I was just reading the other day in a forum where someone that is in the creative industry was expressing that she's doing the work that she loves, but it's been at a point for a while where she's been experiencing burnout. And people were trying to advise her on the post as to why and what to do to kind of get past it, but I think what you're saying actually explains a lot. When you're really giving a lot of that creative energy for what you do for a living, then I think it kind of zaps you a bit more mentally when you're doing that so much. And it just seemed like she was at the end of her rope and wanted to take a little bit of a break, revamp and restructure.
Lydia Grossov:
Right. When you take what's your passion and your zen, and you try to make money from it, you're killing your zen and your passion. You're killing that thing that's supposed to be restorative for you. You're killing that. And you're probably also not making enough money, because you love that so much that you just want to share it with the world, and you're not thinking about how to make a living. And making a living also means making sure that you have enough for retirement, that you have enough to pay for your health insurance, because I have to pay for my own health insurance. So you have to go to the doctor, you have to have health insurance, and that you have enough to take a vacation and take a break, because you have to make sure that... Because when you're not working... At least me. If I'm not working, I'm not making money, which that was also hard for me to adapt where, when I was working in corporate, I had that very structured day and time. And if I had a vacation scheduled, that was it, I'm not working those days.
And that's not how it works when you have your own business. You're still working while you're on vacation. You have to find a way to turn things off for a while, but still keep an eye on your business while you're on vacation. But you also have to make sure that when you're on vacation, because you really want to take time off to recharge, that you're going to be able to pay your bills while you have that time off. So this all goes where, okay, so you have to take a step back, and you have to look at all these numbers and say, okay, can I afford to take a week of vacation here, and a week of vacation there, or a couple of long weekends. You have to take time off.
And sometimes it's hard to schedule that, because when you have a ton of projects coming in, and you want to knock them out, and you're working long hours, sometimes you're working weekends, you have to make sure that once you get a little breather in between, that you take some time off and you recharge, because you definitely will burn out. And all of that plays into making sure that you're making enough money to take that time off and to pay for all the essential things that an employer would be paying for if you had a full-time job.
So you need to make sure that you're covering all of that. So I think circling back to your original question, how do you do that, you have to just put everything on a spreadsheet. Put all of your expenses, your personal, your business expenses, your health insurance, how much do you want to save for retirement, how much vacation do you want to take, do you want to take two weeks of vacation a year, do you want to take five. I mean, there's nothing wrong with taking five weeks of vacation a year, as long as you plan for it and you make room for it financially and physically in your business.
So you have to put all these things out on paper and really come up with a plan. And a lot of it also comes with just getting more confidence and taking that step forward and deciding, okay, I have to charge X amount of dollars for this, X amount of dollars for that. If I want to reach these goals, and I want to be able to be comfortable, and I want to be able to take at least one vacation a year, this is how much I'm going to have to charge.
And you have to just put it out there. You have to take that step forward and adjust your pricing and stick to your guns, but you also have to find the right client base that has the budget for that. You have to make sure that you have the experience to charge that amount of money as well. So there are a lot of factors involved. I certainly had the experience for it. I had a little bit of an awakening when I decided that I wasn't charging enough, and you get those butterflies in your stomach, had a little bit of anxiety over it when I decided to raise my prices. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to lose all my clients, I'm not going to get any new clients, and that didn't happen. I actually started attracting more of the clients that I really wanted to work with. When I actually raised my prices, it was an odd occurrence that I attracted more of the clients that I was really projecting to work with.
Darell Brown:
I think there's a perception that goes with raising your prices too, that there is a perceived value in that as well when you're looking at it from the client standpoint. If you're charging too low, they're wondering if the work might not be up to par. So there's that issue too that I think raising your prices actually helps to solve.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. And when you're working with midsize businesses, if you charge too little, there actually is that perception that you said, if you charge too little, you will actually lose contracts because they'll think, well, there's something wrong here, and I'm not getting what I really need to get with this professional that's not charging enough, something's missing. So there was that. But also when I raised my prices, I increased my design game, how I presented things to clients, and more deliverables to clients. So that also made a big difference in getting those bigger contracts and bigger projects that paid more, because I was also delivering more.
Darell Brown:
Well, yeah. In addition to raising the prices, you also put those systems in place to make sure that you're worthy of that price increases.
Lydia Grossov:
Right. Right. And essentially it's also laying out what I exactly was delivering to clients. So being more specific so that they saw the value in what they were really getting from that price tag that they were paying, or investment I should say, because it is an investment in their business too. So you have to make sure that they understand what they're investing in.
Darell Brown:
That's a perfect segue actually. So obviously you work in design, and I'm assuming your clients, they love your design, but they really want to get a large ROI, return on investment, for their marketing and branding efforts. So how do you discuss that with them in terms of what you provide, their budgeting, and then what they expect the marketing efforts to yield at the end of a campaign?
Lydia Grossov:
Right. So with my business, depending on what I'm designing for the client, it's really hard to put analytics on it. So if I'm designing a logo for a client, rebranding a client, there really isn't a way to measure analytics on a new logo. I mean, there are ways to measure what's the receptivity of this logo, is it drawing more attention, but it also depends on other systems that the client's going to have in place in promoting themselves. So it's not an isolated thing that we can measure on, but they also have to realize that they're going to have to do a series of other things to promote themselves. So again, there's no metric on the logo itself, but some clients realize... Some clients that I work with are startups, and they want to make an impact right out of the gate, other clients have been in business for a while, and their logo is dated, or it doesn't represent them where they are now.
Maybe they've been in business for 10 or 20 years, and it doesn't represent who they are now, and it doesn't connect with their core client base, or it doesn't have the image that they want to present to the world. And we're talking logos don't have to be literal. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't, but they're just... Some companies want a more prestigious logo or something to that effect. So they're really going to measure it by the receptivity of the logo. And I help businesses build brands that are easy to recognize, and that are memorable. So I use a more cleaner design that people can connect with immediately and remember. So that I think counts. There's no metric on that, but I think that's what makes the impact, it's the impact of the logo on the client base and [crosstalk 00:45:41]-
Darell Brown:
It's more of a perceived value metric than more of a financial metric?
Lydia Grossov:
Yes. Yes, exactly. And depending on the clients and the projects, if I'm designing sales pieces or marketing pieces for a pharmaceutical company, it really is going to reflect on how these pieces are being received by physicians and if their sales increase, but it also depends on their sales staff and how they're delivering that message. So there are so many different components involved there. It's not the same as a website that you're going to have a lead page, and you're going to have this whole marketing funnel, and then you have all the metrics and your Google analytics and things like that. So it really is in delivering memorable logos and imagery and marketing and sales pieces, but it's also making sure that the client has other systems in place to make that successful, because I'm only one component.
I'm not a whole agency, I'm not working a whole huge marketing plan that's going to cover advertising and a whole scope of things for them. I can be designing a logo, a website, stationary, and some marketing and sales pieces, and we'll get systems in place and have them connected with doing email marketing campaigns and doing social media, but I'm not doing those components, I'm working with other professionals that are delivering that. So it's a matter of also helping clients get that whole package together. So the ROI aspect is a little complicated, but they also already understand, most of the clients I work with understand that what I'm delivering is unique and some of it isn't measurable, but if we couple it with other campaigns and other efforts, that those items are going to be measurable. So I didn't have a direct [crosstalk 00:47:41]-
Darell Brown:
No. No, no, that's perfect. That's perfect.
Lydia Grossov:
And it really depends on a per project basis and what we're designing. Because I can be packaging for a client, and most of them are prescription products, and there really is no way to measure ROI. It's not something that's over the counter or consumer-based, it really is prescription-driven, and the packaging doesn't matter as much. So it really depends on the project. And so we discuss ROI and what their efforts need to be to get to their goals on a per project basis.
Darell Brown:
It's just the interesting part, because everyone kind of feels that at the end of any kind of a project, even if it is creative, that there should be some financial benefit. So I always think it's curious when you know there isn't going to be a direct financial benefit, how do you communicate that to the client and say, look, your logo is not going to give you $100,000 in sales because it's a logo, but when people think of you, or when they see this logo, they'll think of you, and that in and of itself is a benefit.
Lydia Grossov:
Right. And the client has to be consistent on their end because a logo really doesn't mean anything if your service is terrible if your customer service is horrible. So I do work with clients and explaining and teaching them it's a whole package deal. So while this logo isn't necessarily going to bring you all these sales, but all these other efforts and things that back it will just build your credibility. So it helps you build the credibility because now you have this legitimate, well-designed logo, but you have to back it with all of these other things so that it actually means something and that your company gets the recognition for the whole package. And a way that clients would measure some of that ROI is, are they on par or better than their competition visually, do their pieces, are they as attractive as a larger competitor or more attractive, and that will help them rationalize that investment and that piece, is they want to be on par, they want to be able to compete with either the same level or higher level competition.
Darell Brown:
And it seems like you have been providing that to them very well for the last past 12 years.
Lydia Grossov:
I try to. That is my goal.
Darell Brown:
No, I definitely love that, and then I love the idea that, as a business owner, you're able to speak to them on that level as well. And I think a lot of times, at least when creatives first start out, that's that component that's missing, is that the creative left brain, and then the business right brain, the left brain is definitely working, but then the right brain kind of needs to catch up. And once you get to that... Mm-hmm (affirmative). Go ahead.
Lydia Grossov:
Yeah. And you also can't take it personally. Because creatives put a lot of passion into their design, and then when... You learn to get some thick skin working in the business, because you hear the darnedest things sometimes in regard to your design. You think you've designed this best thing in the world, and then the client looks at it, then like, "Oh, what is this?" And you kind of get shot down. So you have to leave your ego at the door. This isn't about you and your most amazing creation in the world.
Of course we all want to design that award winning design that the client's going to love and is going to make the client a lot of money, but that isn't always the reality, and you can't take things personally. And as long as you can keep that separate and understand, if a client makes a client a comment, don't take it personally, and try to understand what where that comment is coming from and understand what their needs really are, so that you can hone in on it and refine that design. I think that a lot of it is also keeping the business from the emotional separate in that aspect.
Darell Brown:
All right. So this has been an amazing podcast. I love talking to you about the aspects of being a creative in the graphic design realm that you're in, that you've been in business for this long, and hearing that you specialize with your clientele. I guess from my perspective, since I'm in the accounting and bookkeeping realm, hearing your budgeting tips and definitely make sure you're getting paid for your creativity is something that I definitely love to hear. All right. We are going to close out. I thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. I think your insights are definitely spot on. I want to ask you to give a closing thought to listeners. What would be your... I think I might have an idea of what you might say, but what is your closing thoughts to listeners?
Lydia Grossov:
I don't know. Am I supposed to be focusing on the clients, or to other designers?
Darell Brown:
I mean, you could do one or the other, or both if that works for you.
Lydia Grossov:
Okay. Well, for business owners in general, I highly recommend being authentic, being transparent and making that personal connection with your clients, especially if you're working more one-on-one you're not selling to the masses. I think that component really matters in building relationships, and really getting to understand your clients and their needs, and being able to fulfill them. For clients and other small to medium-sized business owners out there looking to work with designers, talk to designers, look at their work, look at their portfolio, and just get to understand a little bit about them, and see if you make a connection with them. Because having that connection with the creative professional that you're working with is really important to better reach each other's goals, to get to your bottom line, is hiring a professional that really understands you and your business.
Darell Brown:
And if anyone wants to reach out to you, how would they find you?
Lydia Grossov:
They can just go to my website. That's expressodesign.com. So it's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-Odesign.com.
Darell Brown:
I'd like to thank Lydia for being a guest of the ProProject Podcast. You can learn more about Lydia and Expresso Design at expressodesign.com. As all always, if you like what you heard today, you could email us at info@proprojectbooks.com. Next week, November 13th, will be our final ProProject Podcast episode of 2019. Please join us as we close out our podcast year. I'd like to thank Lydia for joining again today. This is Darell Brown signing off. And in the words of Lydia, be authentic, be transparent, and make that personal connection with your client.