Master Your Talk
Virtual communication has become the new normal. How do we present our best selves when speaking to our laptop screen?
My special guest, Brendan Kumarasamy of Master Talk will discuss how to have maximum impact when communicating virtually.
Brendan has given speaking workshops to IBM, McGill University, and Technovation Montreal. He has also written a great article titled "How to Give Online Presentations." He coaches business students on public speaking and he also has a popular YouTube Channel, Master Talk, where he gives speaking tips to help Master Your Talk.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Darell Brown:
Welcome to the Pro Project Podcast with Pro Project Bookkeeping. This is your host, Darell Brown, bringing you bookkeeping tips and tricks to make your project finances run a little smoother.
Welcome back to the Pro Project Podcast. I hope everyone had a great Labor Day holiday. Fall is creeping up upon us, and we're coming up to the last two quarters of the year. And as always, I wish everyone health and wealth as we are getting in the last few months of the year. I'm changing it up again from speaking about accounting and bookkeeping. My guest today is officially the youngest guest that I have had on the Pro Project Podcast. You'll hear his age later in the episode. I'm not going to give it away now. Although we're not speaking about business finances today, we're speaking on a topic that's very relevant in our new normal.
How we communicate has become especially important in this new climate, where most of us are communicating via Zoom. How do we present our best selves when speaking to our laptop screen? I have a new guest who I like to call a master public speaker. He has given speaking workshops to IBM, McGill University and Technovation Montreal. He coaches business students on public speaking. And he also has a popular YouTube channel where he gives speaking tips to help you master your talk. He is Brendan Kumarasamy, founder of MasterTalk. I want to get into his speaking insights and intro. But as always, I want to read a quote of his. "Despite all the presentations I've given over my life. I still remember, to this day, how scared I was to post my first YouTube video. I didn't look like anything in my workshops or presentations, but I went ahead with this project for one reason. Impact." So I want you, of course, to introduce yourself and your business, MasterTalk, and explain what you mean by that quote.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Of course, Darell, it's a great way of starting this conversation. So yeah, my name's Brendan, I'm the founder of MasterTalk. It's a YouTube channel I started to help the world master their communication and public speaking. And the reason I was so scared to post that first video is because I never wanted to be a YouTuber. It wasn't something on my mind like maybe a lot of 10-year-olds or 15 year old or the next generation of leaders, so to speak. And then what made me pull the trigger on that first video was because of the impact that I can make with the videos. I realized three years into my coaching practice that I didn't have time to coach the world, and that not everybody could afford me. So I started making YouTube videos on the topic to help some people out. And then one thing led to another, and here we are today.
Darell Brown:
And what do you see as your impact to your YouTube listeners, to your coaching students and to public speaking in general?
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Absolutely. So I think the biggest issue that we have right now, I guess, in the context of public speaking is, a lot of the free content out there is really bad. When you ask people about fear of public speaking, they say, breathe or drink a glass of water, when they're not thinking about where the fear of public speaking comes from. When you ask them what to do about the nerves, they tell you to picture everyone in their underwear. It's all of this nonsense that we hear that literally makes nothing. And these are coming from Ivy league school PhDs in communication, which makes obviously zero sense to me.
But the idea with MasterTalk, and what I really want to push, is this idea that Dale Carnegie was born in the wrong time period of history. Dale was a master at what he did. He had an amazing book. For those who don't know, How to Win Friends and Influence People sold millions of copies around the world. But one issue. He doesn't have, or did not have, access to the same tools on how to communicate and how to make his information immortal in the way that he wanted to. So when we wanted to hear how Dale started, when we wanted to hear how Dale spoke in the same way I'm speaking right now, we didn't get that chance. So I sort of see myself as the modern day Dale Carnegie in the sense that after I'm dead, I want people to learn from me forever.
Darell Brown:
Yeah, that's something. I'll say, first, imagining your audience and their underwear, I've never understood that one. That one would make me more uncomfortable than comfortable. But yes, that's something I've always wondered about as well, where if certain experts that we've known and certain people throughout history, if they'd lived in this time or even 10 or 20 years ago, that their impact would almost be that much greater, because we'd really get to hear it from the horse's mouth, from him directly and not retold through history. I really wonder what's been lost. What's been lost in the retelling of a lot through people that we hear about now, such as Dale Carnegie? So it's definitely an interesting point that you've brought up.
So next, I would definitely like to get into service to others versus follow your passion. First, I know that you are not necessarily a fan of following your passion, so I want to get your thoughts on that. And for you, I guess, how did not following your passion lead you to the path that you're on now?
Brendan Kumarasamy:
You've clearly done your research. That's great. So the idea that I really want to push is, passions are useless. They're general. They're vague. We can't do anything with them for the most part. Sure, some people on the call right now could say, "Well, Brendan, I have a passion. I have something that fulfills me." Well, guess what? You're probably in 10% or maybe even 5% of the people listening to this conversation right now. So let's better understand this. What does a passion mean? The problem is it doesn't mean anything. You can be passionate about anything or many things, family, friends, colleagues, your spouse, tissues, sports that you like. But you can't really make a career out of that, for the most part. That's why I'm a big fan of decisions over passions, because decisions are specific. Decisions are limited. And there's only a certain amount of moves that you can make on the board. So instead of asking yourself, what are you most passionate about? I favor a much better question, which is the following, what does the world need you to do most right now? And why?
So when I was 12, that answer wasn't to be a YouTuber. It was to be an accountant. I didn't have any money. My parents were poor, they were factory workers. And I didn't want them to suffer anymore, because they worked so hard to bring me up. So I wanted to retire them. So nothing grandiose, it was just something I wanted to do. I looked at all my skills and attributes. I realized I wasn't meant to be an entrepreneur or an astronaut or something, but I was really smart at math. So I made the decision to be an accountant. Then when I went to university, I joined a company called PricewaterhouseCoopers that I once thought was a water bottling company. That's how lost I was.
Darell Brown:
Oh really?
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Yeah. It was kind of funny. I remember I was 19. I went to my first information session. So what's this Pricewaterhouse thing? It's like a water bottling place? I learned really quickly it wasn't. So I networked my face-off, made a lot of networks, met a lot of partners for coffee when I was 20. Then I landed an internship at PwC in my second year. And then after that, I said, well, what does the world need me to do most right now? And I said, well, it looks like I don't want to spend 10 years getting my CPA and doing all this stuff, and climbing up the corporate ladder. And I started doing these things with case competitions, which are business competitions that led me into consulting. So getting a job at McKinsey or BCG or IBM. So I reapplied the process and I got the job at IBM that I always dreamed of. And now that's what I do full time.
But how did that lead to MasterTalk? That is the point of this discussion. So tell you my life story? Sure. But that's not the point. The point is to drive the following. If I never made the decision to get a job at Price, if I never made the decision to get a job at IBM, I never would've done cases and I wouldn't have had the expertise to even do MasterTalk. That's why I'm a big believer in making decisions. The biggest mistake people make is that they don't do anything. They wait for some magical passion to fly out of the air. And they've just wasted five years of their life. Whereas with me, it was just like, I want money. Simple. Not like impact. I want money. And then after that I started making money. And then I realized that money didn't matter. I said, okay, what's next? Then I found the impact. And everything lined up in the way it did.
Darell Brown:
Wow. I love that. One of the things that I always think about is what is your why? And for you, of course, you started out your why was money. And why's always change throughout time. You started out, that was your initial why. You completed that why, and then you had to think about, okay, I've done that. Now what's my next why? What's going to drive me forward? And keep making your decisions based on what your ideals are, I would say more so. And so, yeah, that's one of the driving factors that I myself actually use.
Let's go into the second part of this topic, which is service to others. And I actually have another quote from your website that I want to read in regards to this. And it kind of goes into that first quote, having to do with impact. And it's all to say that, "When you care about others and only want to add value, you'll be able to overcome any fear/obstacle in the service of others." So I want to talk about that because I know that you've had fears about putting up your YouTube videos, but you do it anyway. And from what I hear also, you don't necessarily like posting your videos on YouTube.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
You got it.
Darell Brown:
So I just wanted to get into that quote, how, even though you don't necessarily like doing those things, and there's a fear in it, the idea of providing that service to others kind of keeps you going forward.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Yeah. And I love this. And I would love to give a counter-narrative to what normally people answer. So in this situation, what normally people answer is they go, "You know, everyone, living is giving. If you bring service to others..." Thereupon, that's a great way of PRing your way out of things. Let me give you two narratives here. Number one is the practical reason why giving will just make you a multi-millionaire if you will run a business. Okay, let's do that, first part. Or just really successful, whatever that may be for you. Second part is why do I still make the videos?
So the first part of this is this idea of why giving is practical. And I'll give you this super easy example. Let's say you want to get a job? So what most people think of? They go, oh man, I got to compete against all these candidates. I got to fight to the death. Like PWC's a cutthroat company to get into. Great culture, really hard to get a job. Maybe 5% or 10% of the accounting faculty gets in. So everyone wants the job at Deloitte. Everyone wants the job at PwC. But the mistake that they make is they go, it's me versus you. What I did differently is I teamed up with four other really smart people. And I said, let's interview together. Let's practice together. So that way the other people who are working as individuals, they only have themselves to learn from. I'm learning from four people who are smarter than me. And there's enough jobs to go around.
But here's the punchline I want to drive. Let's assume, in this situation, it's me, you, three other people. You all get a job at the big four. And I don't. So a job in accounting and I don't. Let's say I'm the only person who doesn't get a job. Most people would look at me and say, "Well, Brendan, you just wasted your time helping other people. You didn't get the result you wanted." But here's what you're missing. Who do you think those four people are going to refer when they're in the job and they're superstars because I coached them? Well, the punchline is, they're going to all refer me. Brendan is the guy who stayed up all night. Brendan is the guy who coached us. Brendan is the guy who helped us. There's no other schmuck that I'll recommend more than Brendan.
So what happens with me? Three months later I have four interviews and I get to pick, do I work at EY? Do I work at KPMG? I got four offers lying on the table. That is the best referral you could ever get. That is why giving is the practical thing to do for your life, because you will ultimately benefit more in the long run. Sharks always win in the short term, but they always lose in the long run of the game. I'm just glad I learned that lesson early. So that's why, for me, giving back is important. Generosity, it fills me up. Absolutely. But I think the main reason is just because it helps me also from a business sense.
Darell Brown:
Definitely.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Absolutely. And so the second part of this, which is why do I still make the videos when I don't want to make them? I hate the video process. I enjoy it a lot more because I don't have to move the camera and do all that stuff. My friend takes care of all that stuff for me. Thank God for him. But I think the reason why I didn't like it, at least at the beginning, is because it sucks. I don't talk to people. I don't get to have those same conversations, the workshops.
So why do I do it anyways? I do it because of a value system. Not because I get a thrill from doing it. And the value system is as follows. So I started MasterTalk when I was 22. So as you can probably tell, for a 24 year old that you're speaking to, I'm pretty woke. I seem to be pretty wise beyond my years. So why is that? Is it because I came from a really wealthy family, invested in a hundred thousand dollars in my personal development? No. I didn't even have a dime to my name. The reason I became this, I guess, wise beyond my years, so to speak, is because of the generous people who came before me, people like Brendon Burchard, Lewis Howes, Jay Shetty. There's a bunch more. Scott Harrison, that I just learned from. That didn't have to make free content, but chose to.
Lewis is a good example. He has a top 100 podcast in the world. Multi-millionaire. He didn't even need to start a podcast. He was already rich. He did it, and successfully. He did it because he wanted to serve. Because of that, when I was 17 or 18, I found out about his podcast and I listened to all the episodes. And I was able to learn everything from relationships to Olympic gold medalist for free. And because of people like him or her, whoever your thought leaders are, I see it as a moral obligation to share the knowledge with the world. I see it as nobody else is doing it. Everyone else in my industry is selfish. They just want to make a quick buck and not share their stuff for free. And it pissed me off. So I just said, well, I don't have a PhD, but I sure know as much public speaking as they do, why don't I just make videos on the topic? Why don't I democratize this information? So it's more about doing the right thing and standing for something rather than, oh yeah, rosie cheeks and [inaudible 00:14:58].
Darell Brown:
So I got to say, I love that you mentioned, in doing the YouTube videos, you're not interacting with someone. You're essentially just interacting with the screen or with the cameraman. Because I mean, that's basically the world that we're living in right now. Of course, we're speaking to each other via Zoom, but for the most part, I'm staring at my laptop. And most of our conversations, they might end up meeting in person at some point, but this is our primary way of communicating.
And while I love the fact that you're in Montreal right now, I'm in New York. And maybe pre-COVID, we probably wouldn't have connected this easily and been doing this this quickly. But because of COVID, this is the way majority of our interactions are happening. So in this new climate, I know that you've written an article on LinkedIn, How to Give Online Presentations. And I just want to talk about how to give maximum impact when communicating and presenting virtually. So what are some of the tips that you can give on that?
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Absolutely. So let's break this down. I think the biggest difference between online and offline is that you cannot gauge the reaction of your audience when you give a virtual presentation. So let's say I was in New York and I was giving you a workshop, and the team or the people or your friends around you. If I say a joke, you'll know immediately whether I'm funny or not. You're either going to say, "Oh, Brendan, that was pretty funny. Ha-ha-ha. You should keep telling more jokes." Or number two, that is more likely, you're going to look at me and say, "This guy's not funny. He really shouldn't be saying any jokes." But at least I know real time. And I could say, oh, maybe I shouldn't say any jokes. And I'll adapt.
But the challenge with the online world is I don't know how you react. Even in this very conversation that we're having one-on-one. I actually have no clue how you're reacting to me right now because I'm not looking at you. I'm looking at the camera lens. So even if there's a big space where I can look at you directly, I actually can't do that. Because I have to give the illusion that I'm looking, but I'm looking at the lens. But imagine if there's 20 people on a Zoom call, or 10, which is more likely in your case. In the meetings you give, you can't gauge. So what does this mean? It means the same joke that you gave offline with the same enthusiasm, the same energy, the same positivity, where you get the reaction, you have to assume that the joke is just as funny and you have to execute it with the same energy, the same positivity, even if you're alone in your basement. That's the challenge with the virtual world.
And it's a process. One of the trick I can recommend too, in particular, the first one is do mock virtual calls. So get like a bunch of people that you don't like or whose opinions are pretty harsh. Put them all in the room and get them to critique everything, from the way you dress, from the hair that you have and how it's shaped to the lighting, to the way that you say things. And then when you get into the real thing, you'll be a lot more powerful. That's one side. Second side is, imagine the perfect in person audience. So what I mean by that is this very podcast. When I was on my first show, you're kind of just sitting there wondering why is this stranger asking me questions about my life? This is so bizarre. But then after a hundred so and so shows, you assume that the person on the other side of the line is someone that you appreciate, someone that you admire and somebody that you already know.
So whenever I walk into an interview now, or a workshop, I assume I already know the person. Oh Darell's been working so hard on this podcast. She's working so hard. Day in, day out, she's recording on a weekend, she's doing this for free to add value to the people who listen to her in her community. I'm going to guess that she's probably a nice person. So I'm going to treat her as if I knew her for many years. That takes time to get right. But after you do it a lot, the mindset will shift.
Darell Brown:
Yeah. I think like one of my ways of helping with that, as I've done with you, is to research as much as possible so I do really have a feel for the person that I am interviewing. I've read books. I've read webpages. I've read web articles just to make sure that when I'm interviewing someone, I actually have an idea of who they are so I can ask them those kind of real questions and not just be like, well, who are you? And what do you do? And why does that matter? I don't really feel like I'm engaging if that's the way I'm coming across with someone that I'm interviewing. So I love your points on that.
I'm wondering, just in terms of the way it's different, do you think engaging online is better than the in person speaking, or do you think it's kind of odds and ends where in some ways it's better, in some ways the other is better, but then not really one is over the other?
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Yeah. My thinking is the one advantage of online is it's a lot more scalable. Hence why I make the videos, because now I can talk to thousands of people a week instead of a couple hundred or a couple of dozen people in a room. But what I will say is, online presentations are definitely a lot more harder than in person ones because of that very engagement reason. But it also creates the ultimate opportunity, because if you can ace your online presentations, imagine what you'll be like when you're back in person, when you can shake people's hands, when you can talk to them, you can see how they react. You'll be elite, you'll be 10 times better than you were online.
So what I encourage people, a lot of my clients and the of people I speak to on shows, is this idea of prepare for a better world. Do really well online, use this as the best opportunity to ever practice public speaking your life so when you get out there, in the same way I practice on camera a bunch of times before I speak in the way that I do now, you'll dazzle crowds around the world.
Darell Brown:
Yeah. It's been pretty interesting because I've been doing the whole online thing and online networking before COVID. And I've had to practice everything from a 30 second speech to a 60 second speech, to a 10 minute presentation. And now I'm giving them. And it's just like effortless. And sometimes I'm on a call with a hundred people and I'm just like, oh goodness. A few months ago I wouldn't have even been given the opportunity to have to speak in front of that many people. And now pretty much several times a week, I'm I'm doing this and it's just amazing how things have changed and how the audience has grown due to COVID. So for me, it's been a plus. In a sense, I'm almost kind of dreading going back into person because I feel like I now have to perfect this again for the in person audience. But I definitely like having the practice of doing it so much virtually.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Absolutely. I think the biggest benefit in in person, Darell, I'm pronouncing your word correctly, right?
Darell Brown:
Yes.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Just making sure. Because I know we talked about this offline. But the thing I really want to push is the reason why in person is so magical is when people come up to you after. So let's say you're at a chamber of commerce in New York, and you're talking about your podcast and how it's changed people's life. All it takes is for one person to come up to you and go, "Darell, that was incredible. You're such a great speaker." And you're sitting there thinking, or standing there thinking rather, really? You like that? Really?
That's what happened with me. I started coaching CEOs when I was 23, which is kind of bizarre, if you think about it. So when I was 21 or 22 and some CEOs would come up to me say, "Hey, I like the advice you gave me today." I was like, "Really? Don't you have like 20 years of experience?" But then over time I realized the transformation that I was just [inaudible 00:22:37] play. I kept underestimating my potential in the same way a lot of us do. And then over time you realize that, wait a minute, I actually know what I'm talking about. This is useful to people. I should keep doing this.
Darell Brown:
No, no, no. Most certainly. It's like I do want to get to that point where we're in person and I'm giving those presentations in a room full of a hundred people just to see how the transition is from virtual to in person. But I mean, I can certainly say I'm getting a lot of practice, or I've gotten a lot of practice over the last couple of months. So I definitely want to thank you for are being on today. I just want to give you a chance to give some closing remarks. And of course, I always like my guests to give either a closing thought or a closing quote. So take it away.
Brendan Kumarasamy:
Happy to do this. It's actually definitely in my lane. So my closing remark usually on these shows is the following quote, "Be insane or be the same." If you made it this far into the show, if you're still listening to what I have to say and what Darrell is asking of me, you probably have an interest in doing something meaningful with your life or something different that most people don't want to do. And my advice is, if you want to do something great with your life, you need to learn the art of becoming more insane.
What do I mean by that? Don't you find it odd that a 22 year old started a YouTube channel on public speaking, went on to coach a lot of CEOs and companies at the age of 23, but lives in his mother's basement, is literally having this very conversation on a mattress, doesn't own a car and doesn't plan on moving out of his mother's basement for five years, despite the fact that he has a six figure corporate job at IBM? How do any of those decisions make any sense? And that is the point. When the decisions that you make in your life only make sense to the only person that matters, which is you, then you're probably making the right decisions.
Darell Brown:
I love it. So be insane or be the same. I'd like to thank Brendan for lending his time and speaking insights to the Pro Project Podcast today. If you want to catch up with Brendan, you can find him at mastertalk.ca. Once again, that is mastertalk.ca. And of course, if you want to visit his YouTube channel, that is MasterTalk as well, which I put a link to in this episode's description. Brendan has lots of great information on his YouTube channel in regards to public speaking. So please check it out. And the article I mentioned that Brendan wrote on LinkedIn, How to Give Online Presentations, the link to that is also in this episode's description as well.
While virtual communication and, of course, virtual bookkeeping has always been a part of Pro Project Bookkeeping, there was always a little bit of balance where maybe 75% of it was virtual and 25% of that, I would still go to see my clients in person maybe once a week or once every two weeks or once a month. But now that it's 100% virtual, I'm always looking to sharpen my virtual communication skills. And I thank Brendan for being on today and giving his insights on how to best do that. And I hope that was helpful and useful for everyone listening today.
Before I sign off, just a reminder that the Pro Project Bookkeeping coaching program is open and accepting students. This is an eight week coaching program, teaching solopreneurs and freelancers how to track, analyze, and forecast their finances. Our official kickoff was yesterday, September 14th. But as this is a one-on-one individual coaching program, we are accepting rolling admissions through the middle of November. We'll let you know what the exact closing date is. If you want more information, please visit proprojectbooks.com/coaching. And you can also email info@proprojectbooks.com for more information. This is Darrel Brown, your host of the Pro Project Podcast signing off. In the words of my guest, Brendan of MasterTalk, be insane or be the same.